Thomas Kontogeorgos: More and more we try to promote South-South cooperation, more and more we try to bring into our work the vision of the UN Secretary-General of how entities that have been involved in the area of DDR, can engage and exchange with other national entities in order to promote UN approaches in this particular field of work.

UN News: Out of the multiple crises in the world, tell us about Haiti and the expected deployment of Kenyan led forces there.

Thomas Kontogeorgos: Haiti, once again, is faced with a very difficult situation from a security point of view. We do hope that the arrival of the Kenyan force will bring what we all wish for: stability and a certain level of security.

However, that needs to be matched with non-military approaches. And what I'm pointing here is what, many other colleagues, continue to point out. The military intervention in any context needs to be, complemented, needs to be supported, by non-military measures. And there are many tools at our disposal, that drove from the security pillar, from the humanitarian and development pillar, to promote this efforts.

I think that Haiti is a context where the “triple nexus” needs to be at the heart of interventions. Triple Nexus  meaning the humanitarian, development and peace nexus.” 

UN News: How do you operate in countries where the national institutions are extremely weak? Who do you negotiate with when there is a vacuum of power?

Thomas Kontogeorgos: The vacuum of power (in Haiti) was at the political level. At the technical level, we continue to cooperate and collaborate with the national DDR Commission that the 
then-president, established under the direct control of his office.

It's an environment where institutions are weak, fragile, and more importantly, institutions are not present in many of the areas that are controlled by the gangs. Understanding how the national structures enter those areas and enabling an environment where not only they come in, in those areas, but they also provide social and basic services to the population is something that we try, again and again, to promote with the national entities.

Coming back to the area of the National DDR Commission and to the area of the gangs, the approach is to include messages of what it would take for them to turn their backs to violence, what would be the entry points for the communities to accept a negotiated solution and ultimately, what will make a difference in terms of the ordinary life of the Haitian people.

UN News: The main challenge is to talk to all the gang leaders, to reach them out?

Thomas Kontogeorgos: You are touching upon a very sensitive subject, the subject of dialog. That's something that is present not only in the case of Haiti, but in many other contexts. We are of the opinion that dialog needs to be present in all contexts. We are of the opinion that dialog needs to be continuous. In the case of Haiti, I would argue that dialog is even more important now. The arrival of a military force needs to ensure an opportunity for us to minimize loss of lives. The protection of civilians, I think might also be addressed through channels of communication with the gangs, without, of course, legitimizing the gangs, but with the aspect of minimizing the impact on the civilians.

So, yes, I think that the dialog needs to be present in different forms and shapes, including the humanitarian team. And we know that members of the humanitarian team in Haiti are already in dialog with members of the gangs.

UN News: Another country with important challenges is the Democratic Republic of Congo, where the United Nations Stabilization Mission, the MONUSCO, has been deployed for 25 years. Its disengagement process from the South Kivu province has started in April and should be completed by the end of this year. Insecurity is still endemic in the East, where armed groups fight over territory and resources. How do you feel about leaving?

Thomas Kontogeorgos: Correct quarter of a century, 1999. It's when MONUC at the time started. Our team of the ground has worked primarily on addressing the insecurity that at the time, was related to and still is related to a certain extent, to the presence of foreign armed groups. For the record, more than 28,000 individuals, active combatants and associated members have been processed and, we have worked with regional entities for their repatriation, mainly to Rwanda, and we feel that this was an enormous contribution in stabilizing the situation in the east part of the Congo. So far, there is an agreement with the Congolese authorities for the withdrawal of the mission from the South of Kivu actually at the end of June, this is going to be completed.

UN News: How do you feel about leaving?

Thomas Kontogeorgos: The question of leaving is always related to what we call our world “transition”, how we ensure that certain roles and responsibilities, certain tasks of the mission are transferred primarily to the national authorities with the support of the UN country team, bilateral and multilateral entities and actors. What we have done in the case of South Kivu is to work very closely with the national authorities to what concerns the domestic combatants’ aspect and also the foreign combatants’ aspect. We sense that the national authorities would like to receive continuous support even beyond the end of this month to what concerns the foreign combatants, when it comes to the mechanisms that we have put in place. So, we are ready to continue engaging with them so that the sustainability of the whole aspect is ensured. 

To what concerns the long run of the mission drawdown, we are in contact with the entities that have been supporting these efforts for a number of years, from the UN country team, and also NGOs. And we hope that by the time the mission closes, the national authorities will be able, to a certain extent, to take the lead in those actions.”

UN News: That takes me to Mali where the MINUSMA withdrew in December. Last week, the UN Committee on the rights of the child alerted on the widespread recruitment of children in conflict by non-state armed groups. What remarkable advances did you achieve there and what's your main concern now?

Thomas Kontogeorgos: The political, security and development track, unfortunately, did not unfold with the same pace. When it comes to the security track, our main contribution comes from the disarmament and demobilization and support to the civilian life or support to integrating those ex-combatants to the Malian forces.

1,840 individuals went through what was called at the time ‘accelerate DDR process’. And we have also prepared the ground for the DDR process to unfold in a greater scale. Now, we have never reached a point where the national plan implemented in full, because at the time, there were continuous disagreements at the political level, operational level, strategic level, when it comes to the parties in the conflict.

The conflict with Mali has also several layers. The conflict in the north, but then over the years, we've seen a conflict emerging as well in the central part of the country, in Mopti area. When it comes to the recruitment of children it’s mostly linked with the armed groups in the central part of the country. There, there is no peace agreements in place. 

Our biggest worry for now is the strategy the Malian authorities would employ to address insecurity in those two different areas, the north and the center. 

We had an event last week with the Malian authorities in New York. We invited the National DDR Commission. The National DDR Commission presented, their own vision, their own strategy, and I must admit that they have also made a call for support. And this shows that even though the mission closed, the Malian authorities are still willing to receive support, to negotiate and to enter into a dialog with the UN system about specific areas.”

UN News: So the communication is still open with the Malian authorities on how to proceed and how to operate in certain situations?

Thomas Kontogeorgos: On how to advise them. What we provide is, contextual analysis together with them. At times, what we provide is bringing experts from outside to entice their understanding and thinking about things that have happened in other parts of the world.

UN News: We'll go to Sudan, which has been tarnished by internal conflict since its independence, and a fierce war broke again in April last year. The United Nations Mission in the Sudan UNMIS was closed when South Sudan was born in 2011. What is the main challenge for a peace operation to succeed in a smooth transition in countries that suffer protracted conflicts? What does it take?

Thomas Kontogeorgos: “I feel Sudan does not receive the media attention that other conflicts receive. When it comes to political solutions that plays a very important role. At times, the media attention mobilizes member states to unify, to come together and to offer support in many different ways. That's my first comment. 

My second comment relates to what I call ‘the rightness of a conflict’.

I feel that the two main sides in that conflict continue to believe that they can militarily win the fight. One important element is how we build trust between the parties so that they come to the negotiating table and that trust needs to cut across all the subsequent stages and actions. Unfortunately, we haven't reached that stage yet.

UN News: Back to the symposium. What are the priorities you would like to see reflected in the DDR pact for the future?

Thomas Kontogeorgos: I would say something that is and continues to be an aspiration of many countries of the world: a fairer representation of the world to what concerns the Security Council. I think, we have reached the point that there is a wide acknowledgment about the need of restructuring, reforming the Security Council.

I think that the pack to the future should be a statement, which has to be embraced by all member states, on how multilateralism comes back to the table in a meaningful, pragmatic and important way for all of us.

My very last message is about the whole aspect of the governance models that are being offered in different parts of the world. And how, the promotion of those governance models need as a minimum to respect human rights. And that's very important in our world. 

At the end of the day, I always say that the emergence of armed groups in different parts of the world is because of the inability of the state structures and the state to perform its functions, to offer to their citizens a minimum level of support when it comes to social and basic services.

The reform of the Security Council, I think it's an important element going forward, not only for us all, defining and better understanding the whole notion of multilateralism, but I think that it will be an opportunity, for the world to address key security issues.